Dec. 10, 2024
Racing & Business Insights with Olympic Coach Dudley Duncan, EP 264
Coach Dudley Duncan, a legend with over five decades on the pool deck, joins us to unravel the art of swimming and the strategic nuances of racing. Promising a fresh perspective, Coach Duncan underscores the importance of keeping the sport playful, even as athletes become more goal-oriented. His new book, "The Art of Swimming and the Game of Racing," offers strategic insights for swimmers and coaches aiming to elevate their skills and perhaps manage their own swimming clubs. Whether you're an aspiring swimmer or a seasoned coach, this episode guarantees lessons that will inspire a playful yet strategic approach to racing.
We also explore the world of master swimmers, where the motivations and challenges differ vastly from those of younger athletes. Coach Duncan shines a light on the empowering environments of master meets, where camaraderie and personal strategies help adult swimmers rediscover joy in competition. He reminds hesitant swimmers of the supportive nature of these gatherings, encouraging them to embrace racing without the pressures of youth, focusing on personal strategy and enjoyment.
As we navigate the themes of process, preparation, and mindset, Coach Duncan shares anecdotes of coaching athletes to Olympic levels, illustrating the power of mental rehearsal and focus. From Olympians Whitney Hedgepeth's and Rada Owen's journey to Dudley’s own experiences in pool ownership, this episode is rich with insights on maintaining excellence in the sport. Whether discussing the entrepreneurial side of pool management or the benefits of outdoor swimming, Coach Duncan’s philosophy centers on staying present and encouraging excellence, offering a comprehensive guide for both athletes and coaches alike. Dive in and listen to be inspired!
Email us at HELLO@ChampionsMojo.com. Opinions discussed are not medical advice, please seek a medical professional for your own health concerns.
Chapters
00:00 - The Game of Racing
04:36 - Master Swimmers and Racing Mindset
12:59 - Achieving Goals Through Process and Preparation
18:52 - Success Through Mindset and Progression
26:13 - Owning a Pool
32:29 - Outdoor Swimming
42:26 - Mastering Swimming Technique Through Coaching
47:59 - Technique, Excellence, and Process in Swimming
Transcript
WEBVTT
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There is a game within every race.
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It's a lot how you use your techniques as well.
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Racing isn't just swimming.
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It's what you're doing in and out of turns, on finishes and starts.
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Of course it is a game.
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The more you can keep it in that realm of consciousness, I think, the more you enjoy the sport.
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Welcome to the award-winning Champions Mojo hosted by two world record holding athletes.
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Be inspired as you listen to conversations with champions and now your hosts, kelly Pallas and Maria Parker.
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Hello friends, welcome to the Champions Mojo podcast and, as usual, I am co-hosting with Maria Parker.
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Hey, maria.
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Hey, kelly, it's great to see you today.
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Great to see you and also it's great to see our guest, coach Dudley Duncan, really excited for today's show.
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Dudley is a fellow Virginian, like the two of us.
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He has a storied coaching career in Virginia, with over 50 years on the pool deck, but not just as a swim coach.
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Coach Duncan is an innovative businessman and the author of a new book.
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Coach Duncan began his coaching career in 1968 in Newport News, virginia.
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Just one tiny part of his coaching history is that he put two different swimmers on the US Olympic team.
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He also had numerous champions in the USA and NCAA swimming and, maria, you've got a little special little couple notes that our master swimmers are going to be interested in about Coach Duncan.
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Sure, coach Duncan's new book is the Art of Swimming and the Game of Racing Reflections of a USA Club Swimming Coach which shares his coaching history.
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It breaks down the philosophy at the core of quest swimming, reflects on the coaching practices Duncan found most effective and provides advice to coaches interested in owning their own club and pool.
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But this episode's not just for swim coaches.
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Coach Duncan coached master swimmers for over 20 years, so we're going to dive into some special topics to take your own swimming to the next level.
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Welcome.
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Yes, Coach Duncan.
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Thank you for having me.
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We're really excited to have you here.
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So we want to dive in with the topic that it might even be a little taboo among master swimmers, but it's in the title of your book the Game of Racing.
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We all can kind of understand the art of swimming, but the game of racing.
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So let's preface this by saying that a lot of master swimmers, the majority of master swimmers, don't race, and by racing we're going to say going to some kind of a meet and standing up and racing someone else.
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Tell us why racing is important.
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Now it came to mind originally was I was thinking, you know, about 10 and under.
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Swimmers are typically just so joyful when they start competing for the first time and all they want to do is get to the end of the pool.
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And there's not really too much technicality about it, they just have tons of fun doing it.
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They're always smiling and running around and playing, having a great time.
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And then as you get farther into the sport, then it becomes a little more serious and goal-oriented and those types of things.
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So oftentimes I think the game of racing itself is lost in all of those goals and the things you're trying to achieve.
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So it was just a way that I wanted people to think about swimming.
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Still, there is a game within every race.
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You know, some swimmers like to build a race toward the finish and get stronger as they go.
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Others like to take it out fast, try to hold on.
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Some just race the competition depending on.
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You know how they're set up in the lanes and they race with the field itself, and those are elements of racing that I think give a lot of opportunity to do different things and to enjoy the game of racing.
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You know, it's a lot how you use your techniques as well.
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So racing isn't just swimming, it's what you're doing in and out of turns, you know, on finishes and starts.
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Of course it is a game and if you, the more you can keep it in that realm of consciousness, I think, the more you enjoy the sport.
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Did you encourage your master swimmers to?
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race and I would say that it was all to get others successful.
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We did have people that were going to national championships and going, you know, outside the state to race, but it was probably about half of the people that were actually training at the pool or swimming at the pool.
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Different adults do things for different reasons.
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Adults do things for different reasons.
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What stories do race?
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Or do master swimmers tell themselves that keep them from going to events and actually racing?
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I think the main thing that I heard from master swimmers was that they were tired or they had some experience that wasn't good for them when they were younger as you know, kids growing up and they didn't want to get back into that sort of pressure environment, you know, of putting a judgment on their performance in any way.
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So they like to stay calm and just enjoy the act of swimming rather than the racing itself.
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And you know I had others, though that were highly enthused to race, so just depended more on the individual.
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I love the concept of making it a game because you know they say as adults, we need to play more, and I really love you know, fellow swim coach to swim coach here that you do have a game plan.
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I mean the word game is in game plan and that if you don't have a game plan, when that gun goes off you are completely lost.
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You're at the whim of you know, maybe the guy next to you swimming or whoever you're racing, or you may go all out and die, which is definitely not fun.
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And I think that's a key in successful master swimmers that I know and that I've both worked with, and the success that I've had in my own career is that you do have to have this.
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Like somebody take a 200 free, which is so you know it's such a great distance because it's not a sprint and it's not really a distance event.
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But, believe it or not, I have a plan where I swim the 200 free, where I do a six-beat kick on the first 25, then I drag my legs on a 50, then on the next 100, I do a different type of kick and then on the last 50, I build it to an all-out six-beat kick.
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I'm always thinking about that game plan when I swim a 200 free and if I didn't I would just be completely lost and it wouldn't be any fun and it's almost like if I can challenge myself to do that, it's a game and I don't really care where I end up if I go to my game plan.
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Can you tell us a story of any of the many, many swimmers that you have coached that have kind of stuck to a game plan that might've looked different but that ended up either successful or not?
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Just a good story around people using a game plan for a race?
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Well, you may remember Jeff Hutch.
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He swam at Briarwood.
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He was a pretty good swimmer, went to the University of Arizona and still swims.
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Also was involved with the Navy SEALs and teaching them adapted side stroke.
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That enabled them to gain more speed, but with efficiency, so they didn't tire.
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But he loved to race.
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That was just what gave him joy, and he would typically he's very good, by the way, but he would typically put himself somewhere between the knees and hips of the leader and he would kind of just watch them and move along at their speed until he felt like it was his turn to move ahead and then to try to gain the win in the race.
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That way.
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I remember when he was probably a junior or senior in high school, he was swimming for our team and there was a boy that he had swum with on another team too, who typically took races out fast, and so there was a little disagreement over whether Jeff should continue to do what he normally did and found joy with, or whether he should get ahead of this boy and stay ahead of him all the time.
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What ended up happening in that particular meet is that he went ahead and tried to stay ahead and he failed in the race plan because it wasn't to his comfort.
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It wasn't the way he liked to race, so I think it was the last time that he did that.
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I love this discussion of game and game plan and I just finished a bicycle race and I think one of the advantages of racing is putting yourself in a different, a different place with different people.
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And I think for most master swimmer if I, if I don't do well, it's not going to bring me down, you know.
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I mean not too much, maybe for 10 minutes, but mostly it's just it's such a great experience to just be in a different, you know, a different venue and against different competitors and, um, you know, in a different pool, I suppose, with the bike and a different you know, and it's exciting, you know, and you finish that and it's you've seen a different side of yourself.
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But yeah, it's a game, it's fun, that's the whole point.
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It's supposed to be fun, it's not.
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It's interesting to think of even adult master swimmers being plagued by the pressure that maybe they put on themselves or parents or coaches put on them as a child.
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You know, we're adults, we don't care, nobody cares, not getting any money for it.
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I think that's always been.
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If I could talk somebody into that was apprehensive, and talk them into going to a master's meet, then a lot of that would fade away.
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You know, a lot of that apprehension would fade away, because really, a master's meet, then a lot of that would fade away.
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You know, a lot of that apprehension would fade away because really, at master's meets, while they're serious at the time of the race and they want to do the best that they can, the atmosphere is so much different.
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You know, it's so fun and loving and people are just enjoying each other's company and all and they make great friendships that last a lifetime sometimes.
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So yeah, there are advantages if you can just get them past that place.
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A lot of them too, I think, will come out after it's been years and years since they swam competitively as kids and they are uncomfortable in bridging that gap of time and they don't feel confident because of the amount of time that's passed.
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So you have to get them to a level of fitness where you can talk to them about it and then, if you can get them to a meet, pretty much got them hooked.
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You know they like it.
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Yes, so you started coaching in 1968.
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You retired from coaching in 2019.
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That is a 51 year, as we referenced in your intro, a 51 year span of coaching, and obviously you must have worked with lots of people's mindsets and how they, you know, dealt with both failure, success.
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What do you think some keys to your champions that you saw people succeeding?
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What were those traits that you saw in your best performers?
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performers.
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The prime instance that reoccurred so often and every swimmer has a tendency to lean this way or not is if you put the goal ahead of the process, then you typically will see anxiety or some nervousness or sometimes even fear develop, because they're not only elevated to try to accomplish the result that they wanted to accomplish, but they also kind of fear it at the same time, whereas if you can get them to focus on the process itself, just do a good start, swim the race the way that we've practiced it all year in anticipation of this, and finish well, and it kind of goes away and it takes away some of that nervousness and anxiety and that.
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So the problem with thinking about the goal first is that there's typically a judgment put on that.
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So if they achieve it, they're usually very happy and they have some type of judgment associated with the happiness.
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But also if they don't achieve it and they'll ask themselves questions like is this worth it, or should I be doing this?
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Should I do something else?
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You know they'll put that judgment on and they'll wonder what everybody else is thinking about them.
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It's like they feel like everybody's watching their performance, you know.
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So yeah, I think it's an important thing for a coach to try to channel that energy toward things that they're accustomed to and a belief in themselves to do those things, and the result will come as a result of that, rather than to try to put the result ahead of the process.
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A lot of times they'll get so nervous thinking about trying to achieve the objective that they'll almost forget how to swim, or forget a race plan that they've practiced all year long.
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Yeah, I remember my first running race Kelly got me into and I was so nervous I couldn't feel my arms or my legs.
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But I love this again, this concept of separating out the process from the goal.
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And one way to think of that, I think, is you're the hero in your own adventure story and every race or every event that you do is kind of a new little adventure.
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You know, sometimes the bad guys are going to you know be bigger than you expected, and sometimes you know you're going to, you're going to come out on top and I love that.
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You know just taking the judgment out, this is your own story.
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Every event you do is your own story.
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It's your own adventure and you know at the end of it you're going to learn and you know, take your next adventure from what?
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you learned.
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I do have a story.
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This is a story about Rada Owen, who was on the 2000 Olympic team in Australia.
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Who was on the 2000 Olympic team in Australia and she got second in the 200 free to make the team and I wasn't there.
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She was swimming for Auburn at the time, but I had coached her all the way from eight years old to 18.
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So she called me after the race was over and I asked her how she was feeling and she goes gosh, that's the weirdest thing she goes.
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I really had that race in my mind.
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I had visualized it and thought about it every single day.
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I knew exactly what I wanted to do in prelims and semifinals and finals and it happened just like I wanted it to.
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And if I made the team, that was great, if I swam the way I wanted to, but if I didn't, that would be okay too.
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But I made it.
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So I was really happy, of course, but she said I was really happier for some of my teammates that made it than I was for myself.
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So then she gets to the process of going from Olympic trials to the Olympics.
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And she didn't swim well at the Olympics she went not a good swim at all, really.
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So she called me again from Australia and she said well, you know what I was telling you about Olympic trials and I knew what I was going to do and everything she goes.
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When I got to Australia, I never thought about that race, not even one minute, from the time that I made the team, all the way until it was time for me to swim semifinals.
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Actually, he said prelims were easy, no problem, but semifinals they announced us out, you know, or taking off our uniforms or announcing us.
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And I realized while I was taking off my uniform that I had not thought about that race even for a minute.
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And she said I felt this enormous fatigue come over me like a wave.
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And she said I was more tired when I stepped onto the block at the Olympics than I was during all of Olympic trials and everything I had to do there.
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She said, and it's, I swam like that too, of 75 meters and she died because I just didn't think about it.
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So, yeah, that's how it goes really.
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The lesson there is to think about it, to prepare in advance, to rehearse mentally.
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Yeah Well, ideally, you're setting your goal, you set up an action plan where you're going to practice every day the way you want to swim, to do that goal.
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You're going to practice every day the way you want to swim, to do that goal.
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And then it comes, you know, from your mind and from your subconscious when you're there at the race, which is what happened for Rita at Olympic trials.
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But it didn't happen at the Olympics because she didn't go through that.
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Well, I would think a lot of our Olympic teams, when they go over there, from whatever country, you've got to be so focused on getting gold or getting silver you know, getting on the podium that you know you may not think of the process.
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So, other than Rada, you also coach Whitney Hedgepeth to the Olympics.
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What were some things that you felt that Rada and Whitney exhibited that made them special?
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She's very different.
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Whitney was.
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She was born to race.
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I mean, she had race all inside of her from the very first time that I saw her, at eight years old.
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It was a YMCA meet, the first one that I had been to with her, you know and she gave the heat a head start because she thought she could win.
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And then which she did win, you know and I told her when she come back I said whitney, you gave my head start.
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Why'd you start so slow?
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She said I thought I could win, so I just thought I would give him a chance.
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I go, whitney, that's not a good thing to do, you know, that's hilarious yeah, that trade is called cocky, which is pretty well yeah, exactly how about how about Rada?
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And Rada was a super technician.
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Some people said that she was one of the most efficient freestylers that they'd ever seen and her mental game was exactly as I described it she was very good, loved to go through visualization sessions and use what she had visualized in the pool.
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She had a picture in her mind all the time.
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So that was different for Whitney.
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She could hardly ever pay attention to a whole visualization session, you know, but she would really go for it in the race.
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I did have an experience with Whitney that I thought was significant, that I thought it proved to be significant.
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So we were training hard in the max VO2 phase of the training and she was tired, as were many others, and I was trying to encourage her, although she didn't take it that way, and she looked at me through her goggles I could see the hatred in her eyes, you know and she said I'd better make this Olympic tee.
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And we were toward the end of practice.
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So I called it there, you know.
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I said let's call it a day, whitney, you stay for a minute, the rest of y'all go out.
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So I sat with her and I told her you cannot think like that at Olympic trials.
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You'll put too much pressure on yourself, you won't be able to make it.
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You know Well, at Olympic trials she was swimming five events, monday through Friday 100 free on the first day.
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We were hoping she could make a relay.
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She didn't, she was 10.
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She didn't really care that much about that.
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You know, it was kind of an event she didn't do normally, but she had had a good race in it during the summer.
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Then the second day, though, was the 200 freestyle, and that's the one we really thought she had a good shot in, and she was third.
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So she didn't make the team, because there was no 800 free relay in 1988 for the women.
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Man, I was pretty apprehensive about going to that warm down pool after that, but I went over there and she goes well, I'll miss, so I go, oh good.
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So she was third in that event.
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The next day was 400 free, which she did not want to swim.
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She swam it for me because I wanted her to swim it, and she was really good at every distance.
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But she did not like 400 free.
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She didn't make finals and she was happy.
00:21:15.525 --> 00:21:18.153
Then, thursday, she was 100 fly.
00:21:18.153 --> 00:21:23.015
She was fifth in the 100 fly, and the last day was 200 IM.
00:21:23.015 --> 00:21:25.613
So she places ninth.
00:21:25.613 --> 00:21:34.506
But Angel Martino scraps the 200 IM because she wanted to do something special in the 53.
00:21:34.506 --> 00:21:43.028
So Whitney got into lane eight and she placed second and made the team in 200 IM Totally not expected.
00:21:43.028 --> 00:21:46.980
You know she had a really wonderful breaststroke split for her.
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:50.105
She dropped about three seconds off her breaststroke split.
00:21:50.105 --> 00:21:55.317
All by itself All the training that we had done for the IM really worked for her.
00:21:55.317 --> 00:21:59.413
But yeah, that's an important lesson, I think.
00:21:59.413 --> 00:22:01.577
You know she didn't make the 200 free.
00:22:01.577 --> 00:22:07.733
She could have got down on it, you know, but she kept her spirits up and took everything in perspective.
00:22:07.733 --> 00:22:12.020
And then she ends up making the team on the 200 IM.
00:22:12.020 --> 00:22:15.791
And you know she did not make the team in 1992.
00:22:15.791 --> 00:22:27.788
She was very close but missed making the team in 1992 and stopped for a couple of years and came back and then made the team and medaled in backstroke in 96.
00:22:28.790 --> 00:22:30.053
What a great story.
00:22:30.053 --> 00:22:45.797
So you know, it's pretty amazing that you put, as a longtime swim coach myself, you know it's always a coach's dream to want to put somebody on the Olympic team, and not many coaches do even one swimmer on the Olympic team.
00:22:45.797 --> 00:22:55.007
But you had two on the Olympic team, but you had two.
00:22:55.007 --> 00:22:56.990
So let's talk about Dudley Duncan and your goals and your mindset.
00:22:56.990 --> 00:22:58.933
Like how do you, you know, did you set these goals?
00:22:58.933 --> 00:23:00.237
Did they just happen?
00:23:00.237 --> 00:23:17.037
What is it about you that you're continually achieving these incredible things, like your 50-year coaching career, your Olympians now your incredible, unique model for swim coaches to purchase their own pools.
00:23:17.037 --> 00:23:18.145
Now you've got a book.
00:23:18.145 --> 00:23:23.417
What drives Dudley Duncan and what's your mindset to get all these achievements?
00:23:24.125 --> 00:23:25.227
That's a pretty good question.
00:23:25.227 --> 00:23:29.717
Actually, I never thought about where I was supposed to be as a coach.
00:23:29.717 --> 00:23:51.038
I was really focused in, I think, on the moment and things that I did and things that were accomplished during my career I think happened sort of naturally because of the advancements that the people that I was coaching were making as a result of the process that we did.
00:23:51.038 --> 00:23:55.916
Like I didn't ever apply to be a national team coach or anything.
00:23:55.916 --> 00:23:59.992
I thought I was better suited I actually got this from John Flanagan.
00:23:59.992 --> 00:24:08.534
I thought I was better suited to be at home with the majority of kids that I was paid to coach than to go off in other places and coach.
00:24:08.534 --> 00:24:11.193
So I just stay in the movement.
00:24:11.193 --> 00:24:17.498
But I do require, I think, of people that they try to be the best that they can be.
00:24:17.498 --> 00:24:24.476
I really appreciate excellence as a concept and try to bear it out of myself as well as them.
00:24:25.445 --> 00:24:27.010
You know Iceman for John Flanagan?
00:24:27.010 --> 00:24:31.834
I think you knew that John Flanagan never put anybody on the Olympic team.
00:24:31.834 --> 00:24:32.997
Did you know that?
00:24:33.625 --> 00:24:55.133
Yeah, he got really close with Michelle swim coach ever and certainly one of the finest humans, but he would just to put one person on the Olympic team would have been great for John.
00:24:55.133 --> 00:25:01.190
So for you to do it, you know, to do it twice is incredible and really Dudley.
00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:13.131
You know, writing a book after your whole career is something that's quite an achievement, and a book does not happen in the moment, so tell us about that.
00:25:14.926 --> 00:25:15.650
Yeah, that's right.
00:25:15.650 --> 00:25:28.424
I guess the first inclination I had to do it was that I really had people telling me I shit over the years and I never really thought about it seriously because I was usually working too hard.
00:25:28.424 --> 00:25:32.155
But when I retired, I don't know, it was in the back of my mind some.
00:25:32.155 --> 00:25:49.416
So I started putting some bullet points in place, you know on the computer and just thoughts, and then I started to elaborate on those thoughts a little bit and expand on them and next thing I knew it looked like chapters were developing.
00:25:49.416 --> 00:25:52.886
I go, OK, then I'm going to try to do this.
00:25:52.886 --> 00:25:55.292
And so I did.
00:25:55.292 --> 00:26:02.368
I kind of started to put an order together for the chapters and I wanted to present the book.
00:26:02.368 --> 00:26:09.361
And it was a lot of my experience, you know, from a young coach to a mature coach.
00:26:09.361 --> 00:26:12.445
So that's a kind of a natural progression.
00:26:12.445 --> 00:26:45.347
But then I also wanted people to understand the elements of club coaching that differ from, say, college coaching or YMCA coaching or coaching that's primarily seasonal coaching, or coaching that's primarily seasonal because as a club coach you're taking a child, you know when they're seven or eight years old, and you're coaching them for a decade of time at least and it's year round and the meets are typically a minimum of two and a half days and 18 swims, you know, or so?
00:26:45.347 --> 00:26:53.580
Yeah, it's a whole different paradigm for coaching that I think needed attention because it's not really out there.
00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:58.424
People talk about coaching but they don't really talk about club coaching.
00:26:58.424 --> 00:27:03.397
It's not like very much in, for example, at coaching clinics.
00:27:03.397 --> 00:27:04.810
You're not hearing it that way.
00:27:05.724 --> 00:27:27.895
The other thing I wanted to do was to share my feelings on that, my thoughts, and then the last thing was the business, because every coach that you all know on this has made this statement If I had my own pool, I think I could do this a bit better, because you're always answering to board members and not that they're bad, I mean, that's a good thing to do.
00:27:27.895 --> 00:27:31.926
Board members are great but you're always having the back of your mind.
00:27:31.926 --> 00:27:35.470
If I had the ownership, I could do this, you know.
00:27:35.470 --> 00:27:58.596
So I resigned from Poseid, so I wanted to share with younger coaches how I did that, because most of the time you think I can't do that because it's too expensive.
00:27:58.596 --> 00:28:09.570
I don't have, I'm not a business person or whatever, but for me, I bought that pool by assuming a mortgage of $225,000.
00:28:10.413 --> 00:28:12.096
It was a homeowner's association.
00:28:12.096 --> 00:28:13.924
It wasn't a good pool, you know.
00:28:13.924 --> 00:28:17.674
It was a really bad pool actually, but it didn't cost me much.
00:28:17.674 --> 00:28:21.771
I didn't have to put any money down, I just had to make the monthly payment.
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